In a recent blog Amosoyo’s Weblog I was asked ten questions Ask Wynford Dore: The 10 Questions Here are my answers…
1. What is the success rate of the treatment? I’ve heard you claim to cure over 90% of people. Does this figure include everyone who comes in for an assessment or only those who complete a year or more of the treatment?
We can only quote results when we have both “before” and “after” measures on people. So we cannot include those that start the programme for a few weeks or so, find they are unable to commit to it and therefore drop off the programme.
We can only measure those who stay on the programme long enough to compare appropriate statistics. Of course results will vary according to the compliance, and in the case of prison studies (where we obviously have complete knowledge as to whether or not they are doing the exercises) we get an extremely high success rate.
2. By claiming dyslexia is personal problem that can be cured are you not devaluing the impact dyslexia has on people’s lives? Doesn’t this just put the blame on the dyslexic for not getting cured?
If you read my book you will find that I argue that dyslexia is not a “disease” and, therefore, cannot be “cured”. However many of our clients who experience very significant changes chose to say they are “cured”. Trevor McDonald used it in his excellent documentary following dyslexic suffers that they identified and followed them going through the programme.
We feel very strongly about the fact that in today’s society we, quite rightly, expect the Government to provide everything that we need by way of education and health - dealing with dyslexic symptoms is no exception. With this in mind we are determined to keep on carrying out the research and feeding it through to Government bodies until such time as they realise that it is their responsibility to provide this as part of our education system.
3. Recently Kenny Logan and Toyah Wilcox have spoken out in support of your treatment programme? What is the financial relationship between them and Dore? Were they paid to go on the programme or did they pay as a normal customer? Are any other celebrities trying Dore?
Both Kenny Logan and Toyah Wilcox have very openly spoken with sincerity and frankness about the transformation the Dore Programme has given them. I heard someone ask the same question of Kenny recently and he spelt out publicly that he paid to go through the programme just as any other client would. It was only when he was half way through the programme that he noticed that his sport was also improving significantly. As a result he contacted and wanted to recommend it to others for both sport and personal reasons. There are other celebrities using Dore but we are not at liberty to talk about them.
4. For some people your system does not work. What have you done to assess and mitigate the psychological impact of a failed treatment on children to whom you have claimed to be able to treat? What advice on other treatments do you give to those for whom the treatment fails?
There are a very small number of people for whom the programme appears not to work. We take every one of these cases very seriously, do our best to learn from it and ensure that if we can identify any reason that we build that into our screening process as we refuse to take anybody onto the programme unless we are convinced there is a very strong chance that we can help them.
Your point about psychological impact of failed treatments is an important one - with this in mind we have been trying to encourage others in the industry, for the last few years, to push for an introduction of a benchmarking system. This will require all programmes such as, phonics, tinted lenses, fish oils and exercise programmes to go through a rigorous testing programme before they are marketed so that teachers and parents can be informed openly and fully about the likelihood that they will receive benefit from such intervention.
5. Many dyslexics demonstrate great ability at balance and hand / eye coordination through their achievements in sports and art. How can the cerebellum be the causes of dyslexia when their cerebellum is clearly working correctly?
Another good question. Different parts of the cerebellum are responsible for different types of skills. For instance many sportsmen who are good at some aspects of their sport have weaknesses in others - this is usually explained by the degree of development of the relevant parts of the cerebellum.
What our treatment does is “audit” the cerebellum and usually we find that many areas are fully developed (these we don’t need to treat) and the other areas where further development is possible are the areas we focus on. Interestingly quite a number of those who suffer from dyslexia are very good at skiing - a process that relies far more on somatosensory inputs rather than vestibular inputs. The kind of neurological tests we do makes this very clear. If you visit our Dore Sport website http://www.doresport.co.uk/ you will find large numbers of testimonies of very high profile sportsmen who are gaining noticeable improvements in areas of their sport as a result of going through the programme.
6. You claim the cerebellum is the root of all dyslexia problems. Are you saying that all the research ever done on dyslexia is rubbish and that all other treatments do not work?
We are certainly not rubbishing other treatments for dyslexia - in fact there are three distinct elements to the process of learning. One is teaching, the second is practice and the third is the fundamental ability of the brain to acquire the type of skill being taught.
Most dyslexia research revolves around different types of teaching methods - that is very different to the research on the cerebellum and the way in which it can be developed to increase the impact of learning.
7. You have made lots of claims as to the nature and success rate of the treatment. What research has been done by independent scientists and in what peer-reviewed journal has it been published?
We do believe that the cerebellum is the underlying cause of not just dyslexia symptoms but the other symptoms associated with attention such as, co-ordination and frustration. We base this not only on the peer reviewed research that has been carried out by scientists on Dore (two articles published in “Dyslexia” and other papers presented to BDA Conferences). Our policy regarding research is to be completely open and share it with all researchers. We believe the industry would be better served if all other organisations had our same approach. We are strongly in favour of teachers and parents being fully informed at all times about all aspects of research done on this important area.
Why, if it is as successful as you claim, it is not offered to all schools?
With regard to it being offered to all schools - we will not stop until we have persuaded governments to make cerebellar remediation available to all schools. Children at 7 years of age should be tested to identify areas of potential development and given treatment early so that they can enjoy and benefit from the whole of their school life.
9. The Cost…
a. The treatment is very expensive, more than $3000 (£2000). Why does it cost so much and what refunds do you offer if it doesn’t work?
The cost - if just the tests that we do were done at a private hospital it would cost several times our total charges. We have worked very hard to bring down the cost to make it affordable to as many as possible. As I am sure you realise, the cost of research, development of neurological testing equipment and paying salaries and so on has to be borne - although up until now the many tens of thousands who have gone through the programme have been subsidized. One day the Government will pay!
b. Given the success of legal action in forcing the NHS to prescribe expensive and non-approved drugs, do you think there is scope for legal action to force schools to pay for the treatment?
Yet another good point - There is scope for this and we are taking advice on it.
C. We cannot afford the Dore programme, Are there any charities that will assist us?
Yes there are other ways of having the programme funded however unfortunately we aren’t at liberty to disclose the charities names on a public site but if you would like to email Dore directly they may be able to offer some suggestions.
One way that is appropriate for many is the use of Disability Living Allowance - in a significant proportion of cases Government funds are available for those who have to support their children or families.
d. I’m writing on behalf of my partner who is desperate to find help and feels like his dyslexia is alsways holding him back. As you will appreciate it can be very depressing for us both. Unfortunately we cannot afford your treatment. From a personal point of view what else could we try?
See 9c - It always hurts to come across folk who cannot afford the treatment, this is what drives us to work very hard with all the research we can to persuade governments. An American charity is funding what we believe is the world’s largest ever research project with the specific view of coming up with the data that will change government policy. Sadly this will take another two years to be finished - but at least there is light at the end of the tunnel.
10. A great deal has been made about the treatment programme being created to help your daughter. When did she do the programme and what were the effects?
Susie was 27 when she started the programme and, of course, she was the first guinea pig. She very quickly got to the point where all of the reading skills that teachers had given her many years ago became accessible to her and she started to read, write, increase her social skills, etc. If you would let me have your address I will gladly send you a copy of my book which gives a fuller story of Susie.
Many thanks for some very appropriate questions.
1. What is the success rate of the treatment? I’ve heard you claim to cure over 90% of people. Does this figure include everyone who comes in for an assessment or only those who complete a year or more of the treatment?
We can only quote results when we have both “before” and “after” measures on people. So we cannot include those that start the programme for a few weeks or so, find they are unable to commit to it and therefore drop off the programme.
We can only measure those who stay on the programme long enough to compare appropriate statistics. Of course results will vary according to the compliance, and in the case of prison studies (where we obviously have complete knowledge as to whether or not they are doing the exercises) we get an extremely high success rate.
2. By claiming dyslexia is personal problem that can be cured are you not devaluing the impact dyslexia has on people’s lives? Doesn’t this just put the blame on the dyslexic for not getting cured?
If you read my book you will find that I argue that dyslexia is not a “disease” and, therefore, cannot be “cured”. However many of our clients who experience very significant changes chose to say they are “cured”. Trevor McDonald used it in his excellent documentary following dyslexic suffers that they identified and followed them going through the programme.
We feel very strongly about the fact that in today’s society we, quite rightly, expect the Government to provide everything that we need by way of education and health - dealing with dyslexic symptoms is no exception. With this in mind we are determined to keep on carrying out the research and feeding it through to Government bodies until such time as they realise that it is their responsibility to provide this as part of our education system.
3. Recently Kenny Logan and Toyah Wilcox have spoken out in support of your treatment programme? What is the financial relationship between them and Dore? Were they paid to go on the programme or did they pay as a normal customer? Are any other celebrities trying Dore?
Both Kenny Logan and Toyah Wilcox have very openly spoken with sincerity and frankness about the transformation the Dore Programme has given them. I heard someone ask the same question of Kenny recently and he spelt out publicly that he paid to go through the programme just as any other client would. It was only when he was half way through the programme that he noticed that his sport was also improving significantly. As a result he contacted and wanted to recommend it to others for both sport and personal reasons. There are other celebrities using Dore but we are not at liberty to talk about them.
4. For some people your system does not work. What have you done to assess and mitigate the psychological impact of a failed treatment on children to whom you have claimed to be able to treat? What advice on other treatments do you give to those for whom the treatment fails?
There are a very small number of people for whom the programme appears not to work. We take every one of these cases very seriously, do our best to learn from it and ensure that if we can identify any reason that we build that into our screening process as we refuse to take anybody onto the programme unless we are convinced there is a very strong chance that we can help them.
Your point about psychological impact of failed treatments is an important one - with this in mind we have been trying to encourage others in the industry, for the last few years, to push for an introduction of a benchmarking system. This will require all programmes such as, phonics, tinted lenses, fish oils and exercise programmes to go through a rigorous testing programme before they are marketed so that teachers and parents can be informed openly and fully about the likelihood that they will receive benefit from such intervention.
5. Many dyslexics demonstrate great ability at balance and hand / eye coordination through their achievements in sports and art. How can the cerebellum be the causes of dyslexia when their cerebellum is clearly working correctly?
Another good question. Different parts of the cerebellum are responsible for different types of skills. For instance many sportsmen who are good at some aspects of their sport have weaknesses in others - this is usually explained by the degree of development of the relevant parts of the cerebellum.
What our treatment does is “audit” the cerebellum and usually we find that many areas are fully developed (these we don’t need to treat) and the other areas where further development is possible are the areas we focus on. Interestingly quite a number of those who suffer from dyslexia are very good at skiing - a process that relies far more on somatosensory inputs rather than vestibular inputs. The kind of neurological tests we do makes this very clear. If you visit our Dore Sport website http://www.doresport.co.uk/ you will find large numbers of testimonies of very high profile sportsmen who are gaining noticeable improvements in areas of their sport as a result of going through the programme.
6. You claim the cerebellum is the root of all dyslexia problems. Are you saying that all the research ever done on dyslexia is rubbish and that all other treatments do not work?
We are certainly not rubbishing other treatments for dyslexia - in fact there are three distinct elements to the process of learning. One is teaching, the second is practice and the third is the fundamental ability of the brain to acquire the type of skill being taught.
Most dyslexia research revolves around different types of teaching methods - that is very different to the research on the cerebellum and the way in which it can be developed to increase the impact of learning.
7. You have made lots of claims as to the nature and success rate of the treatment. What research has been done by independent scientists and in what peer-reviewed journal has it been published?
We do believe that the cerebellum is the underlying cause of not just dyslexia symptoms but the other symptoms associated with attention such as, co-ordination and frustration. We base this not only on the peer reviewed research that has been carried out by scientists on Dore (two articles published in “Dyslexia” and other papers presented to BDA Conferences). Our policy regarding research is to be completely open and share it with all researchers. We believe the industry would be better served if all other organisations had our same approach. We are strongly in favour of teachers and parents being fully informed at all times about all aspects of research done on this important area.
Why, if it is as successful as you claim, it is not offered to all schools?
With regard to it being offered to all schools - we will not stop until we have persuaded governments to make cerebellar remediation available to all schools. Children at 7 years of age should be tested to identify areas of potential development and given treatment early so that they can enjoy and benefit from the whole of their school life.
9. The Cost…
a. The treatment is very expensive, more than $3000 (£2000). Why does it cost so much and what refunds do you offer if it doesn’t work?
The cost - if just the tests that we do were done at a private hospital it would cost several times our total charges. We have worked very hard to bring down the cost to make it affordable to as many as possible. As I am sure you realise, the cost of research, development of neurological testing equipment and paying salaries and so on has to be borne - although up until now the many tens of thousands who have gone through the programme have been subsidized. One day the Government will pay!
b. Given the success of legal action in forcing the NHS to prescribe expensive and non-approved drugs, do you think there is scope for legal action to force schools to pay for the treatment?
Yet another good point - There is scope for this and we are taking advice on it.
C. We cannot afford the Dore programme, Are there any charities that will assist us?
Yes there are other ways of having the programme funded however unfortunately we aren’t at liberty to disclose the charities names on a public site but if you would like to email Dore directly they may be able to offer some suggestions.
One way that is appropriate for many is the use of Disability Living Allowance - in a significant proportion of cases Government funds are available for those who have to support their children or families.
d. I’m writing on behalf of my partner who is desperate to find help and feels like his dyslexia is alsways holding him back. As you will appreciate it can be very depressing for us both. Unfortunately we cannot afford your treatment. From a personal point of view what else could we try?
See 9c - It always hurts to come across folk who cannot afford the treatment, this is what drives us to work very hard with all the research we can to persuade governments. An American charity is funding what we believe is the world’s largest ever research project with the specific view of coming up with the data that will change government policy. Sadly this will take another two years to be finished - but at least there is light at the end of the tunnel.
10. A great deal has been made about the treatment programme being created to help your daughter. When did she do the programme and what were the effects?
Susie was 27 when she started the programme and, of course, she was the first guinea pig. She very quickly got to the point where all of the reading skills that teachers had given her many years ago became accessible to her and she started to read, write, increase her social skills, etc. If you would let me have your address I will gladly send you a copy of my book which gives a fuller story of Susie.
Many thanks for some very appropriate questions.
14 comments:
In q3, you were asked if what was the financial relationhip between Kenny Logan and Dore. You didnt answer, but isnt he a director of your company?
also, 9a, you again claim to be subsidising peoples treatment, yet your publicly available accounts show massive profits, can you explain?
Thank you for your comments Tom.
In regards to your first question, From the time Kenny went through the Programme and saw significant improvements in his sport he repeatedly asked Dore to develop Dore Sport. Three years later we were convinced to develop Dore Sport. Kenny then became a director to help with that.
Secondly, I would politely suggest that you read the accounts again. I have hugely subsidised the company (and continue to do so). The accounts do show this.
Thank you for finally being honest about this. However it is very unfair that Logan and the other ex celebrities you employee do not declare this financial interest. For a treatment without any independent professional endorsement(and feel free to correct me there), these celebrity testimonials are very compelling for lay parents trying to help thier children, and may mean they spend a lot of time and money pursuing a useless treatment.
Secondly, thank you for your suggestion, I did read the accounts again and they continued to tell the same story, of an extremely healthy company, I would not speculate on the actual profits as they are not shown but they would certianly be many millions of pounds.
make your mind up tom!! its only the other week you were trying to say dore was in financial trouble!!! which is it now? cant you decide? do you want to phone a friend? (aw tom hunny you do make me smile with your contradictions bless ya, must be confusing when you get yourself all worked up into a tizzy!) keep up the good work Wynford xxx
I dont believe I said that, perhaps you could provide a link?
http://gimpyblog.wordpress.com/2008/01/28/are-dore-in-deep-finanical-doo-doo/
my apologies tom, you didnt say that...sorry..i recalled your post from the above link...but i was incorrect...xxx
Thanks for the answers, they are most interesting (weren't they on Myomancy a while back though?).
With respect to question 1, what are the figures on the basis of an 'intention to treat/teach' analysis, please? What percentage of people do not complete the programme, and what percentage of those get a refund?
The DORE programme takes a lot of time, hard work, and commitment by those undertaking it. It is very possible that those who are able to complete the programme differ in important ways from those who for whatever reason do not, whether cognitively or otherwise.
You have the initial assessment data for all participants, whether or not they complete the programme - have you looked at whether anything about the initial assessment predicts drop-out and/or the programme not working?
Thanks,
Duck.
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With regard to percentage of people who don't complete the programme - we are collecting this data now. From our first analysis it looks as if he completion rate is increasing steadily.
When we do research studies in prisons or schools and know the level of compliance the results are very remarkable indeed.
With regard to the differences of those that complete and those that don't we haven't noticed any differences apart from motivation. It is quite common for instance for someone to get half way through the programme and find that the symptoms that caused them to start the programme have improved. Therefore they decide not to continue to the end - if they are happy, we are too.
Thanks for the reply. Please could we have some actual numbers on the drop-out though, surely this is just accounting? Would you be looking at nearer 1% or 50%?
So you don't see any significant differences between 'completers' and 'non-completers' in your initial assessment scores? Have you done formal tests of these for significance, and if so are they available to have a look at please? Since you screen people at length before they start, I would have thought that whether they are likely to complete the programme would be an area of significant interest.
Would you agree that 'motivation' is likely to be an independent predictor of success for someone with dyslexia, whether or not they complete the programme? So how can you tell that you get more positive outcomes due to DORE, rather than them being due to motivation (which DORE would seem to be a good test for, along with other things which predict educational success such as parents who are able to spend a lot of time coaching the child).
Thanks!
Brain,
This is exactly the kind of thing that should be included in benchmarking for all learning and behaviour interventions.
There is a major independent study being started in the summer and all of that data will be made public as soon as it is known.
Delighted to hear there's more research in the pipeline - any info about what and where?
There's been unpublished 'studies' on DORE which claim 1000+ participants - the 'Autism Study' published in the Leamington Courier: http://www.leamingtoncourier.co.uk/warwick/Clinic-claims-major-autism-breakthrough.3704480.jp
(when's that up for publication, btw?) the 'Matched Data Study' (which seems to disappear at regular intervals, last at: http://www.dore.co.nz/researchscience/DORE_MATCHED_DATA_STUDY ). Are these aspects of the same study, or different ones? In any case, you claim follow-up for 1000 participants, 2000 if these are separate studies - how can you not have numbers for drop-out rates from a study of this size? You've *got* the data from these studies, they've already happened & judging by the media attention you must've completed preliminary analyses at least a few months ago, so the data is already sitting there known to DORE. What's the drop-out rates for those studies in particular, please? Did you even use an intention-to-treat analysis?
Also, I've heard 'benchmarking' on here a few times. How about a blog post discussing exactly what this means - what outcome criteria would you consider significant, and so on?
Thanks!
Brainduck
You mentioned that there is a huge study being done in America. Is there any way to get information on it?
How would one go about getting the Dore program for kids in the U.S.? IS it necessary to travel to the U.K.?
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